My first couple of auditions were very lucky, but I was thrilled to act. I wanted to act in the worst way, and I studied with Sandy Meisner for a year – I knew nothing, I was not very good besides whatever flair I might have had, you know?
I love the lowkey implication in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (especially in the Gene Wilder movie) that Willy Wonka was minding his own business one day and he just saw this skinny looking kid staring up at his factory, licking his lips, and he was just like, “Shit, that kid needs some chocolate, but he’s clearly too poor to afford any and there’s no way I can run outside right now and reveal my existence to the world, right? Damn. Okay. I can send an Oompa Loompa. No, that’ll scare the kid. What candy does he even like anyway? What if I give him the wrong one? All right, we need to get this kid into the factory so that he can pick his favorite treat. But what happens when he leaves? Shit, shit, shit, okay, we’ll just give him the factory. Give him the whole factory. That’s the only way. But how? Come on, Wonka, be inconspicuous here. I’ve got it. A nationwide contest inviting multiple kids into the factory where I’ll reveal that the winner gets the factory. Crap, no, then there will be four other kids in the factory. Okay, no problem, we’ll just kill them all until he’s the only one left. Yeeeah, that’s a good plan. Okay, everyone, places. We’ve got literally one shot at this.”
You don’t think Willy Wonka had connections with what seems to be the only candy store in the entire town?
And what, we’re supposed to believe that after years of starving with no money, all of a sudden, Charlie conveniently finds some money right in front of said candy store?
And remember, in the movie (which is honestly one of the few movie adaptations that’s better than the books), the worker picks the chocolate bars that he hands to Charlie.
Wonka and the workers knew exactly what they were doing.
Chaotic good at its best.
this was an interesting read and all but i just read the second last line as “wonka and the wonkers” and now i feel…… strange
The Tesseract or, your brother’s head. I assume you have a preference.
Just checking btw: you all realize, right? That Loki was never choosing the Tesseract over Thor. He was hoping to appear ruthless and loyal to Thanos long enough that Thanos would spare Thor and they could go off together, him quietly plotting Thanos’s death, while Thor escaped.
But Thanos is a master manipulator and abuser, and he called Loki’s bluff. Which Loki figured was probably what would happen, but it was worth a try.
That’s why Loki said “ALRIGHT, stop.” As in, alright, you got me, you figured out my ruse.
I’m just worried people will somehow think Loki was actually going to ever let Thor die. He wasn’t. He was just hoping at first for a way to spare both their lives without resorting to desperate measures.
And a friendly reminder: Loki nearly died twice for saving Jane and Thor in TDW.
I think resignation is very accurate. One of my favorite things Tom said about him (something he said very recently) was the bit where he said that Loki learned that “he would probably never understand himself.” It made me so sad but I think Tom explained so much with those few words.
I like the phrase you used here, “put to rest”. I have a serious beef with Thor and Loki in Ragnarok, but it doesn’t have to do with their relationship or Loki’s actual change of character. I saw the opinions that he was acting or being too ooc compared to before etc. and I completely understand it (can even agree to an extent), but I actually liked it for this reason. For exactly what you said. I think this is a more true glimpse of how they were before the drama of Thor 1 started where Loki immediately began his downward spiral. Thor 1, Avengers, and Thor 2 all happened within a very short time span. This time, years went by. And in that interim, finally free and relatively safe, I think Loki had time to finally “calm down”. Really, just to calm down and catch a breath, to finally sort through everything that happened now that he finally has the time to make sense of it.
Which brings it back to what Tom said. It implies that in those years he tried to understand himself, to figure out why he is the way he is and he couldn’t. And as much as I want peace for my beloved Loki, I LOVE that he couldn’t, because it’s so frickin’ realistic and so utterly Loki!! He’s a chaotic, unpredictable character and it’s so fitting that, in self-reflection, he’s unpredictable to himself. And come the time of Ragnarok, or certainly by the end of it, he finally accepted it and shrugged it off if you will, finally letting go of whatever conflict it was causing him.
And Thor loved and trusted him regardless, still called him brother. Even with Thor’s “change” comment to him, I don’t think Loki changed at all. Switching from bad to good is very in-character for Loki, who seems to operate on an emotional whim more than anything.
I agree that it does seem Thor and Loki came full circle and not in entirely positive ways, but isn’t that also realistic? With a personal history as dark and deep as theirs, a happy ending with a red ribbon on top I think would only devalue everything they put each other through the last four movies. I don’t think either of them is 100% satisfied with their lives and Loki in particular finally let go of the need to find that satisfaction. Even though he never came to an answer, he was finally able to let go of the confusion of absolutely everything, to let it stop getting to him. He is who he is and that Thor still wanted him by his side, always had, it was enough for him. Not everything has been resolved, however much I wish it would! (movie of just those two plz! lol) That’s why it really is “resignation” over “resolution” imo. Both of their journeys, not just one but both, Loki’s hilly ride and Thor’s huge growth as a person, how each arc affected the other’s, they both contributed to the fact that they truly see each other as equals at the end of their story, the very idea that started this whole mess in the beginning. Even if Thor does still scare him a bit and Loki gets under his skin.
So yeah, full circle. 🙂
I completely agree that it’s realistic, because as…god SOMEONE, and if you are that person, speak, up, but SOMEONE other than me, maybe it was @foundlingmother ? Anyway as they said, Thor communicates primarily through action with little consideration for the impact and nuanced varieties of words, and what may shift in the meaning of words from one context to the next, but Loki on the other hand relies almost entirely on words, and reads meaning in Thor’s words that isn’t there. So round and round they go, both fully believing THEIR truth is THE truth, neither intentionally lying to or trying to cheat the other. But they still both need to work on it.
HOWEVER! I remain dissatisfied as to the end of their story; the reason why I am upset isn’t so much Ragnarok discretely (though I do think it was a flawed movie for many reasons), but how Infinity War followed it, and capped off their story abruptly, leaving Thor alone and directionlessly vengeful. There was more to explore. Yes, they came full circle, but I argue that the problem between them is not so much whether or not Thor saw Loki as an equal (he always did), but whether or not action matched belief.
I also don’t know that I think Loki is wont to act solely on emotional whims. I think, rather, that Loki has little concept of the impact of his emotions, because he is primarily a cerebral creature, and he has little capacity to control his emotions when he actually indulges in honestly acknowledging them. Which has a similar result, seemingly impulsive and capricious action, as what you suggest, but I don’t think Loki himself is capricious so much as he is ambivalent, if that distinction makes sense?
I don’t think that Loki “never understanding himself” is something with which he, or the audience, should be fully satisfied. The comics approach this same dilemma but succeed in aiding Loki in accepting and advocating himself as someone who will never fit into a schema of right or wrong as dictated by his family and friends. Somehow there is more resolution to that, and a more positive message for the outcasts and misfits of the real world. Self-acceptance does not NEED to be resignation.
Why? Because Loki’s problem is as much internal as external, and it’s a problem of a MIRROR. Loki doesn’t have an internal MIRROR, and that, as much as “emotional whim,” is why he is in flux: he has existed either to be the villain that he never fully felt like being (Coulson: “You lack conviction”) or to be the (relatively “neutral,” yet usually negative, undesired) foil to Thor. He is STILL the foil to Thor. He is STILL not his own being. And Tom saying he can’t “figure out who he is and has accepted this” is not a notion to celebrate, not something that four years alone masquerading as Odin fixed. Even if that time soothed his immediate PTSD from falling off the Bifrost and serving under Thanos and under the influence of the Tesseract, it still did not provide Loki a mirror. And this goes in with a compelling quote about marginalized populations (like a Frost Giant raised in Frost-Giant-loathing Asgard):
^^^^^^ Although I have reservations about judging him that harshly in the first Thor film; clearly the deceits, though they existed, were never so malicious as to erode Thor’s unquestioning trust in him, as we see vividly illustrated in the deleted pre-coronation scene. I really think Loki’s erosion into a “sneaky, tightly-wound, insecure antagonist” begins markedly with his discovery of his heritage and, worse, the fact that it was kept a secret as if something about it, and Loki inherently, was shameful and detestable. The way I see him behaving in Ragnarok is honestly, with a few subtle variations, the way he behaved in Thor 1, to the extent that he and Thor “reconciled” by revisiting their roles, and personalities, before Loki developed for the worse, and Thor for the better. While Loki is less secure in his place in his family in Thor 1, to be sure, and this produces jealousy that he has wholly put to rest as of Ragnarok, and while I AGREE that his character arc has been phenomenal and gripping, I have reservations about the idea that Loki is 100% satisfied with his life at the end of Ragnarok. He’s come a long way, but I still feel as if he exhibits more resignation than resolution, which speaks to the notion that he and Thor have indeed come full circle, but not entirely in positive ways.
There’s this idea that monsters don’t have reflections in a mirror. And what I’ve always thought isn’t that monsters don’t have reflections in a mirror. It’s that if you want to make a human being into a monster, deny them, at the cultural level, any reflection of themselves. And growing up, I felt like a monster in some ways. I didn’t see myself reflected at all. I was like, ‘Yo, is something wrong with me? That the whole society seems to think that people like me don’t exist?’.” — Junot Diaz (via Tatiana Richards)
And based on what you’ve said, I don’t think that this identity crisis has been solved for Loki. He is still Thor’s foil, and nothing else, which on one level is moving and wonderful, as neither can exist without the other, but I think the bigger problem is that we the audience are being asked to believe the prevailing narrative, which is that THIS IS ALL THAT LOKI IS GOOD FOR, to be Thor’s right-hand man, TO THROW HIMSELF RECKLESSLY AT THANOS AND DIE FOR THOR, because after all, Loki’s story is “done” (the actual words of the Russo Brothers and others at official Marvel hq) so “what else is there for him to do” but die to save Thor?
So when I say “full-circle,” I don’t mean COMPLETE. I mean going back to Square One, for better AND for worse. And that means there’s still a lot of growth to be had between Thor and Loki, and for Loki individually.
Was that me who said that? It’s certainly my opinion… If I did, I said it a lot less articulately.
Loki’s identity crisis never concluded. We never witnessed Loki come to terms with himself, his place in the universe, etc. Resigned is a very good word for the position Ragnarok leaves him in, though I think that’s due more to a lack of interest or imagination of the part of the movie’s creators. Asgard’s uncovered past and Odin’s crimes offer the perfect opportunity for Loki to come to terms with his identity. The people that cast him out are not pure gold, only gilded. They themselves are shameful or monstrous. It’s impossible for me to imagine that nothing comes of Thor’s discovery, of all that Hela revealed.
I think IW recognizes Loki’s identity crisis hadn’t concluded, and it tries to quickly cobble together a conclusion with his speech. He’s a prince of Asgard, a king of Jotunheim, and an Odinson. Crisis concluded! But without seeing how this happened, how Loki arrived at the point where he’s comfortable with all of these titles, we’re left dissatisfied and feeling robbed of a story that would have been one of empowerment for those of us who identify with Loki’s position as an outcast.
See one of the main problems I have accepting Ragnarok’s supposed reconciliation is that they never have an actual goddamn conversation about what happened. In fact the only time the narrative seems to grudgingly admit that Loki has a legitimate grievance was his “It hurts, doesn’t it, being lied to?” conversation with Thor, otherwise the narrative acts like Loki’s actions were that of a spoiled brat acting out, and never once in any of the movies has it even been hinted that Thor himself had a part in Loki’s downfall (even Frigga for that matter, albeit their’s are not nearly as large as Odin’s) And I wholeheartedly agree that they seem to be going back to their old dynamic from precanon, which is uh,,,,a fucking problem seeing as how that dynamic turned Loki into the seething ball of resentment that disrupted Thor’s coronation. I mean fuck, just look at their exchange after Get Help.
Loki: I hate it, it’s humiliating
Thor: Not for me, it’s not
That doesn’t strike anyone as a problem? That doesn’t give Loki’s “I remember a shadow” line in Avengers some freaking context? ‘Cause it apparently doesn’t matter how Loki feels about something, as long as Thor likes it. But who cares if they haven’t actually made up and have actually just fallen back into their old pattern of toxic behavior, it’s funny and gags like that ~breathed new life~ into the Thor franchise.
@pennie-dreadful I have never seen anything put more perfectly than what you’ve just said here in this post. And really what highlights in a profoundly disturbing way just exactly what it is that’s so awful about Ragnarok and it’s treatment of these characters. You really put into words exactly what I meant when I said that what we see happen to Thor and Loki in this film isn’t character progression, like so many seem to want to believe, but actual character DIGRESSION. Like you said, they literally went back to the toxic, poisonous, negatively affirming relationship which led to Loki becoming a villain in the first place. Basically, Loki being Thor’s doll to dress up and do with what he pleases, with Loki’s own feelings and thoughts having no relevance or importance to Thor at all. Thor regressed to the self-centered, douche bag egotist that he started out as at the very beginning of Thor, and Loki regressed to just taking the abuse without protest of any kind. It’s sick man. It’s really sick. And worst of all, like you said, is the message it sends, about this sort of regression and this sort of relationship being okay, even being “cool”. No it isn’t. It’s screwed up. It’s screwed up most of all for the way it treats Loki’s very real trauma and heartbreak like it’s nothing but a joke, sending the message to people who have been through the same sort of abuse and mistreatment that their own pain is nothing but a joke. How anyone can be okay with that is beyond my understanding. We’re supposed to accept that Thor’s progress as a character in the first two films amounted to nothing and he’s just reverted back to being an even bigger dick than before, and that Loki’s accepted just being Thor’s bitch for the rest of forever, and he’s okay with that for some reason, with no attempt at showing or explaining why or how it is Loki just gave up trying. God man, I can’t.
The thing is, I can sort of see where people who argue the exact opposite come from? But without Thor and Loki actually talking it out, I just don’t buy it. Without any direct acknowledgement that LOKI WAS WRONGED BY ODIN, HE’S NOT BEING A SPOILED SPACE PRINCE by being hella fucked up over finding out he was adopted from a race of people who are considered monsters; that it was fucking wrong of Odin to physically change Loki’s appearance as an infant, then any reconciliation attempt is going to fail. I’m not going full on Loki’s Army level of stanning and saying he did nothing wrong ever and none of it is his fault, but he is not the ONLY one at fault. Loki is not the sole person responsible for repairing his relationship with Thor.
You can argue that Odin loved Loki as much as Thor, but Loki obviously did not FEEL loved by Odin. Did Odin even say he loved Loki in the Vault scene? No. He actually said he adopted Loki out of pity and for his potential use as a political pawn. It sure would have made me feel good to hear that. The only one who says Odin loves Loki is FRIGGA…which, come to think of it, even she doesn’t ever actually use the L word, which is uh,,,,highly telling. Thor and Loki weren’t the only ones with a fucked up family dynamic, that much is clear.
Sooooo yeah part of that conversation needs to include Thor respecting Loki’s decision to reject Odin as his father. I mean it could be argued Odin rejected Loki first in TDW, even without relying on the dubious canon of the tie-in comic, where Odin explicitly denies Loki as his son, but since Odin decided to send Frigga away and have that little talk with Loki alone, no one even knows that but Loki. But the point is that Odin’s half assed “I love you” at the end does not absolve him, and Loki is not obligated, ever, to forgive him. Loki is allowed to be angry and reject Odin and at the same time to mourn him, without having those feelings constantly invalidated by his brother.
And that is just the tip of the fucking iceberg of issues they need to sort out.
Well most definitely one of my biggest gripes was how the whole dynamic and relationship between Loki and Odin was handled. Really, the relationship between these two was the driving crux of the entire first Thor film and everything that happened subsequently in relation to Loki and Thor, and yet they never have had a scene where all of those MASSIVE issues were even remotely addressed, let alone worked through or out. Loki’s entire motivation in the first Thor film, and all of his spiraling out of control in the Avengers and The Dark World were really a result of him desperately wanting his father’s love and approval, and then falling into the depressive belief that he could never have it, that nothing he ever did would be enough to earn that love. It’s such a tragic essential aspect of Loki’s character, and instead in Ragnarok we get, as you said, some half-assed scene where Odin says a weak ass “I love you my sons” before fading into oblivion, without explaining any of why he did what he did to and with Loki, and we’re supposed to believe that Loki’s just okay with that, and that’s enough for him to forgive everything and move on. It’s just such a missed opportunity of an epic order. They could have mined this particular issue for basically endless amounts of emotional and genuine drama, but instead they treat it like some sort of unimportant side story that needs to be gotten out of the way as quickly as possible so that they can get on with the action and jokes. It’s just so lame I can’t even really believe it. It proves beyond any doubt that all Marvel really cares about is making money, and that the emotional depth of the first Thor film, and The Dark World were just something they haphazardly fell into.
And you make the most excellent point when you say that Loki isn’t solely responsible for fixing his relationship with Thor, and he also isn’t solely responsible for that relationship falling apart in the first place. Of course they both have some responsibility in it. But we see Thor treating Loki like shit, both at the beginning of the first Thor film, and then repeatedly throughout the entirety of Ragnarok, and never once has there ever been any kind of acknowledgment that Thor’s treatment of Loki may have been in the very least part of what drove him over the edge into insanity to begin with. Thor’s character digressed so much in Ragnarok it’s actually unbelievable. It was at least as much a digression for him as for Loki. It’s like he learned nothing at all, through everything he’s been through. I mean, damn, he never even asked Loki what happened to him in the Void, what happened to him at the hands of Thanos. Nobody in his family ever asked him anything like that at all, including, like you said, Frigga. That alone would be enough to serve as proof to Loki that nobody in his family actually ever cared about or loved him. So why don’t we see some of these things addressed? If they want to show Thor developing as a character, you don’t make him into even more of a frat boy dick bag than he was in the first Thor film, you show him acknowledging his mistakes in regards to his little brother and trying to fix those mistakes. How the hell is Loki supposed to change or forgive anyone when no one will even acknowledge that he’s been wronged?
What gets me is how they heaped all the fault onto Loki alone, making Thor look superior and totally blameless in his and Loki’s problems. They made it all “how has Loki disappointed Thor, how has Loki hurt Thor, how can Loki walk the line, and be a good brother to Thor”. Loki’s pov doesn’t even matter, Loki’s hurts and disappointments aren’t even a consideration. Nothing was resolved where he stood emotionally. He was resigned. Thor and Loki were not on equal ground.
It’s like they scraped all the meat out of what Tom Hiddleston created, and left a shell that just exists to serve Thor. Sidekick, second best, second banana, back in the shadow, plot device, and expendable character. And then called it fixed, and full circle.
Goldnwulf 